Hello everyone, A very interesting discussion is happening on the PVCD list (Pioneer Valley Contra Dance - Western Massachusetts/Southern VT) regarding the cost of attending a contra dance. The original post and replies are pasted below. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. I'll post mine in a separate e-mail. Chris *************** Hello everyone, I thought I would bring this up as no one seems to ever talk about it. Many times at dances there is a student admission price and general admission price. The basis here seems to be based on the assumption that students are on a fixed income and those who are not students live on a higher income. While, yes, many students are living on a low or fixed income, there are many people who are not students who also live on a low or fixed income. Some less than many of the students. There are some dancers who live on very little. I live on barely $700 a month myself. That is less than what many dancers make in a week. Why can't low income dancers pay a reduced price like the students? The Brattleboro contra dance does this. I also know there is a dance in Greenfield that do sliding scale or barter. I think that this should at least be given some thought.-Andy Johnathan ************** Hi Andy, This is a challenging question that could in fact be addressed to many areas of life, not just contra dances. I think you are correct that there is an assumption that most, but obviously not all, students have a low or fixed income and that many ­ but not all ­ contra dance organizers offer a discount to full-time students. I think this happens primarily as a way of encouraging students and younger dancers in general to check out contra dancing and perhaps also because it¹s been customary for so long. I think one of the reasons why a student discount is offered by many dance series is that it is at least somewhat verifiable via a student ID. I think two reasons why more discounts or a broader, user-determined sliding scale are not offered by most dance series are: 1) someone¹s income status is not verifiable; and even if it was, 2) no organizer wants to get into a situation of making those kinds of judgment calls. Yes, there are plenty of people who live on low or fixed incomes who would like to come to dances and no one wants to see them turned away because they can¹t afford to come. There are also plenty of people who choose a very low-income lifestyle for a huge variety of reasons ranging from war tax resistance to being a dance gypsy with no fixed address. I have friends who are on disability and also friends who are in the tax resistance and dance gypsy categories all of whom could qualify as ³low income² based on their annual gross income. I also know of the occasional conscientious student who is not on fixed income and pays full price and I know dancers of relative means who frequently put more in than what is required. However, I think the real bottom line reason you don¹t see more sliding scales or discounts is simply the economics of running a contra dance. Nearly all contra dances are run on a break-even basis with performers, and sometimes the organizer, receiving a share of the net gate after expenses. Depending on the night ­ weather, other events happening at the same time, etc. - that OEshare¹ is frequently short of what the musicians and caller should appropriately receive for the time, effort, skill and gas that goes into what they do. Organizers often only take a share or partial share if the dance does particularly well. Some organizers who also perform as musician or caller (this includes myself and others you likely know) will sometimes forgo their share to make sure the other performers get paid appropriately. Organizers strive to ensure performers receive a minimum amount for an evening and fairly often wind up paying out of their own pockets to cover the difference. In addition, many contra dance musicians would probably qualify as ³low income² because they make their living in a way that broader US society generally does not value highly. Personally, as a dance organizer (the Downtown Amherst series) and as someone who works with community arts organizations all day long, I am deeply committed to seeing that performers get appropriate compensation for what they do and since I¹m not able to cover shortfalls out of my own pocket, we are working over time to setup financial structures that allow us to always guarantee a minimum. So, what I think it comes down to is this: in order to offer a broader range of self-determined discounts, which ­ and I¹m making an assumption here ­ would reduce the per dancer income, you have to: 1) paying the performers less, and/or 2) charge dancers more. Some dance series organizers choose the first option, and that option is made easier when the organizer is also the caller and/or lead musician. And, some musicians and callers do have OEday jobs¹ such that they don¹t need the income as much. The latter option would presumably mean increasing the base rate for the dance to say $12 from the current norm of $10 at most dances, and then offering more discounts. Alternately, one could simply state that a sliding scale goes from $5-15 and see how the money comes in and whether it works out financially. My guess, based on some experience with sliding scales, is that if you go from a fix rate, such as $10 admission/$8 students, to a sliding scale of $5-15, the number people paying on the lower end might or might not be enough to compensate for the few who can and will pay on the higher end. So, I¹ve been addressing the realities and challenges of running a contra dance in a way that makes it economically viable for the most people, including: dancers, performers and organizers. There is also the larger question that is currently fueling the ³Occupy Wall Street² protests, which is the ever-increasing wealth disparity in the US as well as the gradual erosion over the last 20+ years of real purchasing power, with those on the lowest end of the income scale getting squeezed the hardest. Any discussion of wealth-redistribution ­ and that is what the discounts or sliding scales your are proposing really are ­ gets into very difficult questions of fairness and equity, but also the effects of classism, racism, sexism, ³able-bodiedism² and what is the best way for society as a whole, as well as smaller parts of society such as community contra dances, to address them. combination of a student discount along with a willingness to trade work for admission - usually help with cleanup after the dance or at the admissions table ­ a manageable compromise. Some go further and choose to offer a sliding scale and/or barter, it¹s just a question of priorities and an assessment that each organizer needs to make. At the Downtown Amherst dance we have offered discounts or admission to folks who volunteer to help with the door or closing, as well as a student discount. If the economics of running a dance improves ­ something I¹m not counting on anytime soon ­ then we might consider other possibilities, but for now and with our rent about to increase, this is what works and is most manageable for us. Sincerely, Will Will Loving Downtown Amherst Contra Dance http://amherstcontra.org *************** Will - Good presentation of the organizer's performer's perspective I thought I would add a comment from another perspectives. The Dance Gypsy lists contra dances with prices ranging from $3 to $15, with median price around $8 ... the more interesting thing is to compare the price of a contra dance to other recreational opportunities. generally a contra dance evening is cheaper than: - a swing dance, ballroom dance or tango evening (typically $15-20) - a concert (even one featuring musicians who also play for contra dances (go figure)) - a movie - a community theater or comedy venue - a visit to a museum - a meal at McDonalds, Subway or the farmers' market - 2 beers or a glass of wine (remember: no tax or tip at a contra dance) - parking at a public lot in a large city - baby sitting for the evening. - a lesson in almost anything - a one-time visit to a gym - inviting a friend over for dinner ... Bottom line: even with no discount, contra dancing is one of the cheapest entertainments available for an evening. You would have to look very hard to find a better deal for the evening. -- Greg Scragg *************** There are some dances that have their discount labeled as "student/low income"; I would be curious to hear how that works for them. The BIDA dance deals with this by using a sliding scale ($5-$10 for everyone) and actively recruiting volunteers (1hr means free admission). Jeff ***************** Hi all- I would like to add that the big difference between contra dancing and other rec activities is that the money goes directly to the sponsoring organization, the musician an/or hall rental. None of whom are EVER rolling in money. A typical average night might yield $75-150 for a musician. Take into account promo and hours and it it ends up being close to minimum wage for some musicians. Coming to a dance is a choice, and as a musician, if I go to a dance I make sure that I am paying the musician for the time that he/she is giving me. The big difference is that the performers/ callers are not "the man". This is not a judgment but I would like to think and hope that the same folks that put less money in the fiddle case on one of our honor system nights are also foregoing cable, and asking for a discount when they go to movies as well. The movies, and the cable companies will not suffer financially, and if they do, it's rich shareholders that suffer. On the other hand we musicians and grassroots orgs DO take a direct hit when people pay less or don't pay. It's not that we are not willing to offer a discount, but sometimes (and I only speak for myself when I say this), I feel like I feel a little taken advantage of when someone who potentially makes more money than I do pays the limited income price. That said, I feel that people do deserve a discount if they cannot pay and I want to go on record in saying that we honor that request on friday nights and always have. I only hope that folks understand the impact it has on us musicians. Thanks for reading! Peter PS: Experiment: Try asking the mutiplex cinemas to offer a "limited income discount" and see what the 17 year old being paid $8 an hour behind the glass says. **************** Hi Andy, I'm with you on this one. I suspect that the fixed income of many students, especially in this area, is higher than what many non-students have to work with. It had been my understanding that some of the non-Friday dances had a low-income option, but the one time I tried that, I got a look of such disgust from the person at the door that I would rather not show up when I can't swing the full price. I want to say that this has nothing to do with the value of the dance. Everyone knows that I love to contra dance. I do believe that the musicians should be paid well for their hard work and energy. And of course I support the continued renovation of our lovely building. But the door cost keeps going up and my income doesn't. I can go to two swing or ballroom or tango dances to recorded music for the cost of one contra, and that includes gas. Or I could go to one other kind of dance and have some money left to start the new week. The entrance cost is a topic that comes up from time to time, but without much of a solution. I don't have a solution, either. I'm mostly writing in commiseration and to acknowledge the situation. The bigger economic picture continues to squeeze us all, but may we keep dancing, however we can. Karen Steward ************************ First off, I am very much appreciating the thoughtful quality of this discussion. A couple of reflections to add - I have a dear friend who is a wonderful contra dance musician who stopped playing dances in California because his expenses to get to dances were more than his "take" and his finances didn't allow him to underwrite the dances. An example of the cost of the tight finances of contra dancing. Two creative possibilities I am wondering about... 1) in places like New Zealand there are "woofers" who barter a certain amount of labor for reduced cost/free admission to events (e.g. posting flyers, getting events in local papers etc.). Are there any tasks which could be assigned which would generate more participants (and thus more revenue) and would create a win-win for both the dances and a few regular dancers who are living on limited means? (I am not seeking to add to the workload of the producers here and am imagining something very small scale which, if you needed help with, I could volunteer to coordinate.) 2) what would happen if a sliding scale were arranged upward to create a bit more money in the budget for those who are cutting it tight (musicians, producers, and low budget dancers) - a gentle encouragement for those who can give more to do so. Thus, if I used to see $8-12 dollars at a dance and gave $12 when I could, I might just as willingly put in $15 if the new range was $8-15. I am someone who always gives to street musicians because I want to live in a world where street music happens. For the same reason, I will always give what I can to a dance - whether it goes to the people who produce it or people whose spirits are called to dance but whose finances don't allow for it. My guess is that I am not alone in being open to giving a few dollars more to support what I care for. I suspect that we (in dance circles) protect the dancers from the real economics of the dance at the expense of the musicians but that is a whole topic on its own... Nan Dill **************** I wish there was more ride sharing by all... ***************** I think many make good points. Yes, I do understand the cost to run a contra dance. I understand it is not cheap. There is the cost of rent, paying the band, paying the caller etc. However, I do know that the Brattleboro contra dance includes low income with the lower price and that dance also has to pay the band and caller. I also do like that at some dances you can get reduced/free admission by helping to clean up. I have done this the past and have no qualms about it. I also do see the problem of an organizer determining whether or not someone is low income. That situation could get a little out of hand if many dancers claim they are low income when they actually are not. However, I do think some dancers are driven away because they can't afford the price. I also am not a fan of the assumption of many contra dancers that if you are young you must be in college and if you are not there is something wrong with you. I never went to college and have been contra dancing since I was 16. When I was 18 through 22 (the traditional college ages) I payed full price even though I was in a much more severe economic situation than many of my peers who were in college. Speaking of classism, it is rampant with some of the dancers. I had one dancer make a snide remark about the tape on my vehicle. Now what does tape on a vehicle have to do with contra dancing? Why would someone even randomly make a snide remark like that? Greg, I *wish* I could afford the things you mentioned! You are wrong about the gym membership, though, I pay $10 a month at my gym. Also, yes I could easily find entertainment cheaper than a contra dance, but I *do* love contra dancing so I pay full price when I do go even though I can't really afford it. There are some dance series that are worth paying full price and I have no qualms about it. This brings me to the issue of dance "atmosphere" and "attitude", which may be separate post all together. I think one idea could be some form of "work exchange", which some dances do already. Or even some form of "scholarship" one could apply for, similar to some of the dance camps. Possibly make the "scholarships" have some sort of work requirement and even make them in limited number so the callers and bands don't lose income, either. Or make some sort of contra dance discount card in limited number, similar to a student I.D. One could apply for one so the organizers know the person is truly in a hard economic situation. Anyway, just some thoughts. To be honest I don't really expect anything to change anytime soon, I just think this topic should be brought up from time to time. Just as many other topics involving the contra dance "community" should be discussed. -Andy Johnathan ******************** I think the idea of of working for reduced cost/free admission is a good one. -Andy Johnathan ******************* Hi folks, I wanted to respond to the discussion of admission prices with a clarification about the dances that I run. Third Saturday contra dances in Greenfield offer an admission price of $8-10, and the Brattleboro dances charge $7-10, where the lower number is advertised as students/seniors/low income individuals. We allow people to choose which category or which end of the scale works for them on that particular night, and trust that folks will take into account the many issues that have been raised in this discussion (performer pay, cost of other entertainment options, expenses of running a dance, etc.) when making their decision. Both series also always need volunteers to help with setup, cleanup, sitting at the door, and other tasks in exchange for free admission. If you are interested to volunteer at one of my dances you can email me at ethan(a)ethanhw.com <mailto:ethan%40ethanhw.com> or call me at 802-257-9234 during the week before the dance. Thanks! See you on the dance floor, Ethan ***************** Andy, I know you acknowledged the difficulty but I just want to say again that as a dance organizer, I don't want to be in the position of continually having to make judgment calls about who is "truly in a hard economic situation". I appreciate your situation and the of those on truly tight incomes. You've made some good suggestions about how to reduce the cost of admission for those who genuinely benefit from it, but for me the issue is how to keep the overall revenue from going down and impacting the performers. Just for some additional perspective, the economics of running a dance can vary considerably with the particulars of the venue. Our hall rental fee in Amherst isn't bad but we do pay nearly $500/year for liability insurance regardless of the number of events. We are still acquiring sound equipment so we don't have to rent or cobble something together for each dance, though that is mostly through separate fundraising. Rental of the Guiding Star Grange is slightly more expensive than what we pay in Amherst but users to my knowledge do not need to bring their own insurance or sound system. The Peterborough Town Hall is very expensive, $400 if I recall, and my understanding is that the monthly dances there at $8 admission almost never break even and benefits events are then held to make up the difference. It may be that once we have our sound system a sound system paid for we can do an experiment with a sliding scale and see how the numbers work out. We have a generous community here - as evidenced by Nan's note - and it might work out just fine. Will Loving **************** Another thought: how you label where the money is going makes a difference to how much people are willing to put into it. If you label the cost of a single dance as a sliding scale from $5-20, say, then even those who can afford the $20 may figure that a single dance isn't worth that much, given that no other dance costs that much. And for people like me (I'm a grad student with a low fixed income), I see a sliding scale and think 'yep, I'm low-income, so I'll pay the lower amount', since even when I have more money available at the time, I don't know what my next expense is going to be. However, what if you had a second pot at the door, for donations to the "2nd and 4th Friday Contra Fund", or whatever? I feel like it's easier to put some extra money into something that feels like it's a more long-term investment like that than it is to pay a lot more for a single dance. Personally, my savings fluctuate up and down during the year based on things like how much our heating oil costs. During the summer, I'd be willing to throw some extra money into a fund that I thought might help offset my lesser ability to pay during the winter. To organizers, a fund like that could help even out pay for musicians and dance halls on days where fewer people show up, and to dancers, it's an investment that's helping to ensure that the regular event continues. -- Brooks *************** The North Adams dance (next: Oct 21) asks for $5-$10, first-time contra dancers free, leaving the exact amount to the judgement of the dancers. Though we have a small crowd, and live in a low-wealth area, I find the average to be close to $10. The economics of playing music is difficult, because the music that most needs to be played rarely coincides with living-wage money. However, community dances work because the dance organizers and culture-setting musicians (I could name a dozen offhand) are ethical to a fault, and that demands a respect that is also currency. As long as I see that it's fair (and it's often slightly unfair in my favor), I've got no complaints about pay. Also, it's fun. This is important. I have endless respect for dance organizers, who generally work for little (often no, sometimes ngative) money, and often get far less recognition than us local-ish musicians who just pop in, play, and go home. Anyway, to the point: there can't be a single right price for a dance these days; wealth varies too much. I think asking low-income dancers to register as low-income, or otherwise prove hardship, is likely to hurt attendance. I believe that this combination works well, at least in a small community: - strong community ethic, reinforced by the organizer and caller at every dance. I think open-fiddle-case collection makes this stronger. - a sliding scale, left to dancers' judgement, but with friendly encouragement to be generous. - openness about finances, *before* anyone asks. - acceptance of barter, as much as possible. Homemade refreshments at break! - exceptions made, privately, as needed That said, the North Adams dance has spectacular community support (musicians, callers, venue), so our expenses are quite forgiving. -Eric ****************************